Sgt. Cardwell Must Pay $500, Redo Deposition In Dave Jackson's Suit

JOLIET, IL — Joliet Police Sgt. Pat Cardwell was ordered to pay $500 of his own money and undergo a second deposition in Joliet Police Detective David Jackson's racial discrimination lawsuit against the Joliet Police Department, former chief Al Roechner, Joliet Police Lt. Joe Rosado and a host of others.

Over the past four years, Cardwell served as president of the Joliet Police Supervisors Association. In that role, Cardwell thrust himself into the spotlight on a number of controversies including the unpopular 2019 ouster of interim city manager Marty Shanahan.

Cardwell also spearheaded last October's expulsion of Joliet Police Sgt. Javier Esqueda from the Joliet Police Supervisors Association.

However, at his Feb. 22 deposition, Cardwell refused to answer several questions from Jackson's lawyers at the Vucko Law Firm in Oak Brook.

As a result of Cardwell's lack of cooperation, U.S. Magistrate Judge Jeffrey Gilbert entered a court order May 2 stipulating:

• "Sgt. Cardwell shall reimburse Det. Jackson in the amount of $500, as a reasonable portion of the costs incurred in the first deposition."
• "Sgt. Cardwell shall answer questions under oath at the continuation of his deposition, to be conducted remotely via webconferencing software, within 30 days of the Court’s entry of this Order for a period of up to 3.5 hours on the topics and subjects raised in Plaintiff’s Memorandum in Support of his Motion to Compel."
• "Sgt. Cardwell shall pay for up to two hours of the court reporting costs associated with the continuation of his remote deposition, and shall pay any costs associated with obtaining the transcript thereof."
• "Sgt. Cardwell shall bear his own attorneys’ fees and costs."
• "The oral argument on Plaintiff’s motion to hold Cardwell in contempt which was previously set for May 3 is stricken."

Cardwell's second deposition is set to take place Tuesday.

"We argued in our motion that Joliet and certain of its employees seem to believe they are above the law and have shown repeated behaviors flaunting evidence preservation and failing to comply with their discovery obligations and our firm won’t stand for it," Jackson's attorney Stacey Vucko wrote Joliet Patch on Thursday. "We will get to the truth.”

The transcript of Cardwell's Feb. 22 deposition became an exhibit in Jackson's civil rights lawsuit. Joliet Patch is now publishing excerpts of that deposition, to give readers a snapshot into the line of questions Cardwell was asked and how he chose to answer.

Jackson's attorney, Joey Vucko, asked Cardwell to provide a summary of his relationship with Al Roechner, who retired as chief in January 2021.

"Al's a good friend.· I've known Al since I was in the police academy," Cardwell answered. "I went to his retirement party."

"Did you ever go out drinking with him socially?"

"No, I haven't."

Cardwell Doesn't Search For Records

Cardwell was reminded he was expected to search for any documents and communications he had, including emails, voice mails and other electronic information related to Detective Jackson from January 2017 to present.

"Did you search your e-mails for any responsive documents?" Vucko inquired.

"I didn't, but I know I don't have anything on there," Cardwell answered.

"Did you search your text messages?"

"No, I didn't."

"You text with Joe Rosado socially. How do ·you know that David Jackson never came up in those text messages?"

"I respect Joe's privacy and his professional side of things," Cardwell answered. "I didn't ask or look into anything as far as text messages or anything like that in regards to Dave Jackson."

Cardwell was also reminded he was expected to search for any communications he had with Roechner, Rosado and former deputy chief John Perona regarding Jackson's arrest by the Crest Hill Police Department, which happened March 9, 2019.

"I didn't search through any of that because I've had no contact with Roechner, Perona, or Rosado in regards to anything to do with the arrest of David Jackson," Cardwell anwered.

"And, again, you're relying solely on your memory for that response; is that accurate?"

"Yes."

Prosecutors dismissed the charge against Jackson before it ever went to trial.

Cardwell testified he joined Joliet's Police Department in 1994. He graduated from Joliet Catholic High School in 1988.

Cardwell was asked if he was interviewed by the Illinois Attorney General's Office in connection with Kwame Raoul's investigation into the Joliet Police Department surrounding allegations of unlawful policing.

Cardwell Won't Discuss Attorney General's Inquiry

"This past fall. I spoke to the attorney general. Stephanie Steines, one of the top assistants."

"What was discussed?"

"Just a lot of different matters with the Joliet Police Department, stuff that is still ongoing."

"Was the Eric Lurry matter discussed?"

"Again, I spoke with the attorney general's office as far as my union privilege, and, again, it's an ongoing, continued matter."

"Are you refusing to answer my question?"

"No.· I'm just exercising the fact that they discussed sensitive issues with me in regards to the Joliet Police Department that are still ongoing.· And, again, those are matters that were between myself and the attorney general."

"So you are refusing to answer my questions on that; correct?"

"I answered it that it's an ongoing discussion between myself and the attorney general's office."

"Including Eric Lurry?"

"Again, it's a matter between myself, my board members, and, again, between Stevi Steines, Stephanie Steines of the attorney general's office," Cardwell responded.

In July 2020, Joliet Police Sgt. Javier Esqueda came forward as a whistleblower and furnished videotape of Eric Lurry's in-custody death to CBS Channel 2 Dave Savini.

Cardwell Won't Discuss Esqueda Controversy

Esqueda suspected the Joliet Police Department was tampering with evidence in connection with Lurry's death. In October 2020, Roechner had Esqueda charged with several counts of felony misconduct and in October 2021, Cardwell notified Esqueda of a vote to expel him from the Joliet Police Supervisors Association.

"Yes, I hand-delivered it," Cardwell testified. "He was in City Hall."

The letter informed Esqueda "your conduct is deemed so reprehensible that removal from membership is appropriate."

"Please explain what was so reprehensible?" Joey Vucko inquired.

"Again, I'm going to exercise my union privilege at this point. This was an internal union matter between us and a member of our FOP Supervisor's Association," Cardwell answered.

"So you're refusing to answer my question on that basis; is that correct?"

"Again, I'm going to just exercise anything to do with our membership, anything to do with our union, it was a private matter, it was a matter between us and a member of our union."

"And, again, it's my position that you have no ability to shield that from my discovery here in this lawsuit. We are going to have to bring you back to testify," Vucko told Cardwell.

"Whatever you have to do. Again, I'll exercise my union privilege that, again, it was a union matter."

"Did you vote Mr. Esqueda out of the union?"

"Again, I'm going to exercise union privilege in regards to discussing anything with union matters."

"You do realize that some of this was covered in the news."

'Bring Me Back,' Cardwell Tells Jackson's Lawyer

"Sure. If you have those news articles, you have the information, then."

"I'm giving you one more opportunity before we're going to have to bring you back for another deposition."

"Bring me back," Cardwell told Vucko. "I'm just letting you know I'm exercising union privilege.· I'm not going to discuss what was discussed in a union meeting or a union matter. Again, I'm no longer the union president. I'm not going to discuss these matters ..."

"Was Mr. Esqueda expelled from your association that you reference in this letter?"

"Again, I'm going to exercise union privilege. That's a question you can ask him if you depose him.· But, again, I'm going to exercise my stance, as far as when I was union president, and ·exercise union member, or union privilege on not discussing these matters."

"Was there a 35-to-1 vote to expel Javier Esqueda from the Joliet Police Supervisor's Association after this letter was handed to him?"

"Again, I'm going to exercise union privilege.· If you have, again, the media documentation of it, that's fine.· But I'm not going to discuss anything with regards to what happened in the union meeting or what happened at a board meeting, as far as union privilege."

Cardwell Asked About Fake Facebook Profile

At one point, Cardwell was asked about the fake Dave Jackson Facebook profile that someone created to stir up controversy surrounding the president of the Joliet Black Police Officers Association.

"So I want you to see here on this second page, a message attributed to you. It says, 'I know the FB site Dave Jackson is someone else/hack but I'm not going to be naive about the message being sent. Just disappointed in his views and direction regardless of this mornings post,'" Vucko read.

"Did you make that text message?" Vucko asked.

"I don't recall," Cardwell answered.

"Do you think your own text messages might help you recall?"

"Again, I don't, I wouldn't be able to find that in my phone, but if I, you know, I don't recall ever having that."

"Why wouldn't you be able to find that in your phone, Mr. Cardwell?· That's curious to me. You're a police officer ... Have you ever had to search through text messages on a cell phone?"

"Yes, I have."

"Why can't you do it for your phone?"

"Again, I can do it through my phone. I don't recall any of these texts or what they're authored."

"Going back to this comment that I have here on the exhibit, as it's displayed here, at the line starting 'I know the FB site David Jackson is someone else.' ... Do you have any recollection of what Facebook site or post is being discussed here?"

"I don't really recall. I thought there was somebody using, like, an alias name of Dave Jackson on social media," Cardwell answered.

"Do you recall remembering that it wasn't actually David Jackson?"

"I can't really recall.· I thought somebody directed, or using his name on social media as an alias."

"Do you have any idea who would have been using his name as an alias?"

"No, I don't."

"The sentence starts out saying that you know that 'Dave Jackson' is someone else. How do you know that?"

"From what I recall, somebody, I can't recall who told me, but it was just somebody using it as an alias."

"Do you recall having any conversation or communication with Carlos Matlock about that Facebook post?"

"I remember sharing with maybe (Darrell) Gavin and (Carlos) Matlock just that I thought it was inappropriate ... some of the details that were listed in the Dave Jackson post were inappropriate and that there was probably some inside information that was provided on that post."

"Did you believe the real Dave Jackson had provided inside information for this post?"

"Not that I would know of."

"Do you believe a different police officer might have?"

"It's possible."

"Who else might have that type of inside information that you're referencing to actually pull off a post like that?"

"Besides internal affairs, administration, a lot of people talking as far as within the police department."

Questioned about Eric Lurry

Cardwell answered no, when asked if he was at the scene where Black Joliet prisoner Eric Lurry was arrested on the afternoon of Jan. 28, 2020 at Briggs and Washington Streets.

"Prior to entry into City Hall, were you ever on the scene where Eric Lurry was in custody, outside of the police department?"

"Yes. I was there as they were administering First Aid on him and the ambulance was arriving."

"While you were there, did anyone say something to you along the lines that 'Serg, he has something in his mouth.'"

"No."

"Is it your testimony today that nobody alerted you at that time that Eric Lurry had something in his mouth?"

"No. I wasn't aware of anything when I got to the, when I got to the alleyway there outside the sally port."

"Who did you speak with?"

"When I showed up, they were pretty much administering First Aid, and that was kind of, you know, I remember talking to Dave Harris. He was our east side supervisor. There was just a lot of people running around, scurrying."

"Was there an ambulance on the scene at the time?"

"Yeah, an ambulance arrived shortly thereafter I did."

On a different matter, Cardwell was asked about the removal of Marty Shanahan as city manager.

"I attended a meeting, a council meeting before with several other board members where there ·were people there that were supporting Marty Shanahan and people that were speaking on his behalf."

"Did you communicate anything at that meeting?"

"I believe it was Councilwoman Quillman that asked if there was anybody here that is not in support of Marty Shanahan.· After she gauged the room and she asked who was not in support of Marty Shanahan, I raised my hand."

"Did you speak to any City Council members about removal of Marty Shanahan at any spot outside of that meeting?"

"I'm going to, again, take union privilege. Anything between myself as a union president, in speaking with council members in regards to any type of collective bargaining issue, I'm not going to answer that."

Cardwell testified that under his collective bargaining contract, he is allowed to bank seven weeks of vacation, which is 280 hours, plus another six weeks of compensatory time, which is 480 hours.

"I believe you testified earlier that you (had) something in the area of like 800 hours of unused vacation time. Is that right?"

"Yes."

"Did Marty Shanahan ever provide you with a spreadsheet identifying all of the Joliet police supervisors who were in violation of their contract with regards to accrued vacation or comp time?"

"I don't recall."